Wizards in the Lord of the Rings are very, very different. They're a different species of creature than the mortal races- more close to being demigods.

And yeah, Gandalf doesn't really use much magic aside from the powers of PLOT.

oh wait, in the Hobbit he used some magics to fight off some wargs, didn't he?

Lemme link it for you

>>>/a/13378686

Most of Gandalf's magic occurs off-screen, so to speak, in the LOTR books, as well as the Hobbit. It is implied he and the Balrog had a minor throwdown before they all made it to the bridge. There is also the Warg battle in Hobbit which may the only case where he actually did some magicking within view of the narrative (nothing else leaps to mind).

But yeah, for the most part the five wizards in LOTR, as well as other magical beings, were not very overt with their powers. Read the Silmarillion if you want more of the typical "wizard" stuff. However, they do tend to have very magnetic personalities, spilling over into a sort of hypnotism or mesmerism in Saruman's case.

Also, for the record, Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast and the other two wizards (red and blue, can't remember if they were ever named) are Istari, a type of Maiar spirit (demigod) that were sent to Middle Earth.

Sauron was also a Maiar spirit, though one of the more powerful ones. I think his original name was Annatar, or that was at least what he called himself when he caused the fall of Numenor.

>>2240709
also for the list: Saruman's possesion of the king?

>>2240791
Théoden? That's from the movies only IIRC. In the books, he was 'just' being poisoned in body and mind by Wormtongue.

Well, if I remember the books correctly, there was no real possession. I think it was more of a mindfuck, constantly reinforced by his stooge Grima. I could be forgetting some details though, been awhile.

It does seem like their power, at least in Middle Earth, was to a large degree appointed. Once Saruman lost his position (White to Many Colors to zip) and his staff, he was harmless except for his voice, which didn't seem to lose any of its mesmeric qualities. See the whole Scourging of the Shire episode in the books, both for his mesmerism at work and how easily he was ultimately dispatched.

All right. I'm the biggest Tolkienfag I know.

First off. Probably the most impressive display of magic that Gandalf used was against the Nazgul at Weathertop. No one was actually there, but the Hobbits/Aragorn saw a lightning storm while far off on the hill.

The reason Elves/Wizards didn't use that much magic is that all magic had a corrupting factor, depending on how it was used. When Gandalf calls down lightning to save his own skin, every Nazgul/Balrog/Saruman can sense where he is and what he is doing. Since most of the plans in LotR depended on big-time stealth, big magic slingers were reluctant to let the enemy in on their plans.

Another, more abstract reason lay in the fundamental difference between good and evil. Evil used magic for power's sake and that's pretty much it. For the good guys, magic was used for art's sake and every time you used it for destruction, you were pretty much perverting it's use. I think he has this discussion somewhere in the forward...

Anyways, hope this answers your question.

>>2240617
I don't believe Glorfindel or Sauron were wizards. Glorfindel was an elf, and Sauron was a spirit similar to the wizards, but of greater power.

>>2240865
It's like there was a magical cold war going on at the end of the third age. If anyone had started to use their power in earnest, it would have started a conflict that no one could win. The wizards were of lesser power than Sauron in the first place. Sauron was of great power, but it was all bound up in the One Ring, currently in the keeping of halflings. IIRC, all of LoTR was about not letting him get the ring, which would have made him unstoppable. So the wizards and Sauron pushed their pieces around on the board rather than sweeping them off and proceeding to the boxing match.

>>2240964

That is the single greatest explanation of LotR evar! Thank you good sir.

It seems to me that Gandalf made maximum use of his magic whenever it was called for.

He used it sparingly because that's just the wise thing to do. You don't want to call attention to yourself when you can avoid it, and you don't want to waste your strength when you might need it later; if Gandalf had spent his magic fighting the troll, he would have been tired and the Balrog would have owned him.

It's frequently demonstrated that there is a certian "drain" effect for magic in Middle Earth. Luthien (a half-maiar, and the most beautiful elf ever) did some amazingly high-powered enchantment type shit in Silmarillion, but was (magically) helpless for days after, seemingly unable to call forth her power again even to save her family or lover.

>>2240964

Depends on what you mean by wizard. Seems like wizard referred to the five Istari sent to deal with Sauron and that's about it. If you take wizard to mean magic user, then pretty much all Noldor fit the bill.

Elrond and Galadriel were not "officially" wizards, but had the use of rings of power and used them to create supernatural havens and defend them (see Elrond's river trap).

Also, it was never really established that Sauron was more powerful than any other Maiar, just that he had more forces under his control. The whole aversion to using magic basically stemmed from when Morgoth was dealt with and the destruction that followed. No one was anxious for a repeat, no matter that it would be on a smaller scale.

>>2241038

Except that it doesn't make any sense at all.

Once the quest of the ring began the cold war got hot. If either Gandalf or Sauron could have won by "bringing out the big guns", they would have.

He is right, though, that the dark forces were more prone to "throwing their weight around" magically. There was a fundamental difference between good "magic" and "bad magic" in LoTR. In one of his essays Tolkien likens one to "art" and the other to "the machine".

>>2241045
Yes, by "wizard" I mean specifically Istari, although OP was being broader. I get the impression that Sauron was not necessarily more powerful then most of the Maiar, but was more powerful than the Istari. And I think you're right that the good guys wanted to avoid destroying everything with a magical clash, but I suspect Sauron was more worried about his personal future in that event.

>>2241071 If either Gandalf or Sauron could have won by "bringing out the big guns", they would have.
What do you think I meant by "cold war"?

>>2241045

>Sauron "The Abhorred" (in Sindarin called Gorthaur); greatest of the servants of Melkor, in his origin a Maia of Aule`.
~Silmarillion, Index of Names (p. 420 in my edition)

>>2241071

In the example, magic=nukes, Gandalf=USA, Saruman=Russia. They'd have killed each other if they used magic. Sauron was off being all weak and disembodied.

>>2241105

A cold war is a standoff where neither side brings their full arms to bare for fear of the destruction that would cause.

Sauron had no cause to fear destruction. There was no standoff, though the good guys were generally outmatched, and had reason to conserve ammo.

>>2241116
Greatest *of the servants of Melkor*.

>>2241129 Sauron had no cause to fear destruction.
Why do you say this, when a large portion of his magical power was literally in the hands of his enemies? And even if it were true, that has no bearing on whether he did fear.

>>2241116

I both love and hate Tokien discussions because it bring out the nitpick in me.

Greatest of the servants of Melkor does not establish Olorin's (Gandalf) pecking order either above or below Sauron. Gandalf was not a servant of Melkor.

I don't actually think anyone knew whether Gandalf (also a maiar) would prove to be stronger or weaker than Sauron. After all, in his own words "against some foes, I have not yet been tested." I think he was referring to any number of things, Sauron not the least of them. Besides, Saruon was literally a shadow of what he was in the second age.

>>2241135

Okay, I see what you're saying.

It IS established that not all Maia are created equal, however; some are much greater than others. Osse was virtually a god, as was that chick who carried the sun. Likewise, the Balrog were technically Maia; they were among those fire spirits which rallied to Melkor when the song was first song. And even among the Balrog some were greater than others.

Being the greatest one on Melkor's side makes Sauron a badass. Though it's never directly implied that he is stronger than, say, Osse, or Melian.

>>2241150

This was cause for him to take every last measure he could to kill them and reclaim it.

And that was exactly what he did. He deployed all of the nine, called every ally he could scrounge up into action, and brought his own, personal power to bare at every opportunity (such as to attack Frodo's mind whenever he could).

You're theorizing that he had some metaphorical "nuke" up his slieve that he never brought into play, because he was afraid of . . .
Afraid of what, exactly? What you're saying just doesn't make sense.

Much of the idea in LoTR is that, after Numenor fell, most of the magic (coming from the Valar or their influence) was gone from the world. Thus, few were that left that could use it. Besides the obvious powers of Gandalf (Lightning, breaking down a bridge, emiting light and other things) or The Ring (Invisibility, seeing more things, and some degree of mind-control), most of the magic comes as a mental thing: Aragorn appearing as more imponent based on his clothes or situation, Sauron forcing his will upon his servants or terrorizing people with his eye, the uncontrollable fear that the Nazgul and the death army create upon others, and etc.

For big time magic it's better to see Silmarillion, or better yet the first era. Melian's Fog that made it's kingdom almost invisible for years, Luthien singing to entrance the whole Angband, Ungoliant's threads of darkness, Sauron's shapeshifting...

>>2241200

You know the Ring can do a SHIT LOT more than that. But Gollum, Bilbo, and Frodo don't know how to use magic, so...

>>2241152

Oooh, weakened Sauron vs. Gandalf the White?

Yea, that's a little more complicated.

Sauron with the ring was definitely Gandalf's superior. Gandalf barely took out a Balrog, and Sauron was much greater than a Balrog. He was greater than the king of Balrogs. Noldor fought Balrogs hand-to-hand in the first age, but when Sauron took the field none could stand against him.

But then, it's not always that simple. For example the Hound of the Valar (forgot his name), in defense of Luthien, kicked Sauron's ass. Meanwhile Carcharoth was a match for that hound, and they in the end slew eachother (even though it is directly stated that Sauron was greater than Carcharoth, his power lies in different areas).

None of this speaks to the restrictions that Gandalf also labored under (like all wizards).

I guess you're right; we never really find out.

>>2241176
I'm not saying he was the greatest, only that the ones doing the fighting (Istari, basically) didn't feel they were in a position to deal with him on a one-to-one basis, and that he clearly didn't feel capable of doing them in either. Possibly just because he feared his ring would be used against him, or possibly because he was old and fat. For all we know, Gandalf the white could have taken him, given the chance.

One of the neat things about Tolkien is that actions that seem rational to the all-knowing reader don't seem so rational to the characters, making it subtler than the THESE GUYS ARE GOOD and THESE ARE EVIL setup would suggest—they couldn't bank on actions being taken according to level and alignment.

I like this thread. This is old nerd hattery.

>>2241251

Why do you believe that Sauron did not feel himself in a position to take on the Istari directly?

Did he even have that option? Was he capable of leaving Mordor in his disembodied form?
I think that if he could have come for the ring personally he would have.

>>2241243
also, wasn't he gandalf the grey during that fight, then he took a prestige class into White? Then again, I think the class restrictions kept him to just doing specific tasks before leaving the world.

>>2241194 This was cause for him to take every last measure he could to kill them and reclaim it. And that was exactly what he did.
What makes you think this was everything he could do? He sent out nine guys to chase some hobbits around and thought angry thoughts at them? I'm "theorizing" that he wasn't bound to sit on his ass in Mordor, personally overseeing the construction of his army. If he had thought it wise, he could have personally attempted to retrieve the ring (and probably succeeded, at that). But he didn't, no moreso than the wizards thought it was a good idea to fly into Mordor and settle the matter like gentlemen.

>>2241276

Yea, it's implied that White is better than Gray (Gandalf the grey loses to Sauramon, Gandalf the White beats him).

There's also a lot of rock-paper-scizers shenanigans in LoTR. Aragorn being no match for a wizard, for example, but being able to take on multiple ringwraiths, whom the Istari feared.

>>2241273
Because he didn't. I think he could have gone for the ring (especially when it was guarded by a grand total of two hobbits; what kind of bitch couldn't take them on?), but did not believe he could. Also, I'm pretty sure he had a body, although not an attractive one, at that point.

>>2241273

Yes, he was capable of doing shit outside of Mordor. He was setting up shop in Mirkwood during the Hobbit when Gandalf and some others(?) came and drove him out. We don't know if that was part of his Master Plan(tm) at that point, but we do know that if he could have faced Gandalf and whoever went with him (possibly Radagast and Saruman, a little help here?), he would have done so and rid himself of the major opponents right off the bat.

>>2241282
eh, I dunno. Sauron seemed pretty damn set on that ring. Seems he woulda gotten it any way he could, but the ring wraiths were his best bet.

>>2241303

No, he could no longer take on a corporeal form after the Last Alliance wasted him. First, he lost his ability to look pleasing (Annatar) after he was beat by the elves and Numenoreans, then he lost even that after the end of the second age.

>>2241303

He didn't know there was only two hobbits to take care of. Most of LotR depends of everyone being ignorant of what everyone else can do. It works, too. It's demonstrated nicely when Sam breaks into that orc tower to free Frodo and everyone is shitting themselves at the elven warrior that's supposedly around.

>>2241315
Lolwikipedia says you're wrong. Normally I wouldn't quote it, but since it's got references to texts.... Anyway, Gollum refers to Sauron's black, four-fingered hand.

>>2241322
Precisely. He didn't use his power, not because he couldn't have, but because he believed it would not work out well for him. Cold war.

>>2241282

The Istari didn't fly into Mordor because they would have gotten destroyed, by Sauron as well as his servants (wizards aren't arrowproof. Yes, they're technically immortal, but they don't seem to know that and clearly don't rely on it). Mordor is exactly where Sauron's power is strongest, both magically (Sauron's direct power is much more limited outside Mordor's borders) and in military strength. Mordor is exactly where they don't want to be.

Sauron had the upper hand in terms of brute force; or at least that's what the Istari believed. But his actions were limited, and Gandalf had the advantage of secrecy and missdirection.

At least, that's what I read. My assumption was that Sauron couldn't leave his tower, having no body with which to do so.

You theorize that Sauron could have marched out of Mordor in all his metaphysical splendor and succeeded, and yet, for reasons unclear, chose not to. In fact, even once he knew Frodo with the ring was right under his nose, within Mordor's gates, he didn't feel like stepping out onto his front porch to take it back, instead feeling it wiser to work through minions and watch as The Ring was carried to Mount Doom.

I'm sure you could concoct an explaination for such behavior, but when does the book give us the slightest reason to believe this?
Are you familiar with occam's razer?

>>2241343 You theorize that Sauron could have marched out of Mordor in all his metaphysical splendor and succeeded, and yet, for reasons unclear, chose not to. In fact, even once he knew Frodo with the ring was right under his nose, within Mordor's gates, he didn't feel like stepping out onto his front porch to take it back, instead feeling it wiser to work through minions and watch as The Ring was carried to Mount Doom.

First of all, he had a body at the time. Second, there were one or more entities bearing the ring through Mordor, that much he probably knew. Their nature, I doubt he knew. What's he going to do, wander out to this presumably powerful wizard and say, "Hi there, I see you've got a ring of ultimate power there; may I have it? (Please don't kill me with it.)"? Third, I don't think he necessarily could have succeeded against Gandalf. I think neither he nor his enemies felt confident about the outcome of that encounter. My *point* is that both sides had power they did not feel confident using at that time.

>>2241343 Are you familiar with occam's razer?
No, I wasn't aware he was an avid PC gamer.

>>2241329

All right, you are correct. But not because of Gollum. Fuck him. For all he knew, he could have been gabbing with the Witch-King.

Council of Elrond: "Some here will remember that many years ago I myself dared to pass the doors of the Necromancer in Dol Gulder, and secretly explored his ways, and found thus that our fears were true: he was none other than Sauron, our Enemy of old, at length taking shape and power again."

Still, he fled before the wizards' council, which I'm pretty sure was Gandalf, Radagast, and Saruman. This suggests that even though he was reforming, he was still pretty weak, personally, both because most of his power was tied up in the ring and he had lost a lot of himself in battles over millenia.

Anyway, Sauron never really knew what the hobbits were up to in Mordor 'till it was way too late. It was totally unthinkable to him that his opponents would destroy the ring, rather than try to use it. His master plan really hinged on that his enemies would try to use the ring, granting him domain over the guy who tried.

>>2241400

Where does it ever say that Sauron has a physical body after he loses the Ring? It would make more sense that, since he put all his power in it, he couldn't reincarnate. And it makes sense that even if his old body didn't explode when he lost it, it got hacked to pieces, so he wouldn't have that, either.

>>2241400

Sauron bends every other resource he has towards reclaiming the ring. It is several times stated explicitley that he will "stop at nothing" to retake it.

The mate here, I think, is when he realized that the ringbarers (whoever they may be) are right under his nose in Mordor. Keep in mind that this was the case a few days before Aragorn and company staged their "distraction".

If he could have left his tower to come after them personally at that point, he WOULD have. If he could have called up volcanic erruptions or storms of red lightning, he would have. If he could have abandoned his tower and descended on Sam and Frodo like a bat out of hell, he would have, even if he thought all four remaining Istari were with them.

At that point he's looking at the annialation of all of his power. He's desperate. And unfortunately, he's already committed a lot of his resources to the front line, but just the same for him to hold anything back at that point makes no sense at all.

Magic of the type that the ainur use actually involves spending part of their own essence to alter the pattern of reality. If you had to cut off one of your toes every time you cast magic missile you'd probably use it sparingly too.

The bad guys get around this a bit by exploiting loopholes: melkor corrupted part of the world itself so that part of his power would be a part of reality constantly, and sauron did something similar by crafting his rings. Actually I guess they all do it to an extent by creating physical incarnations to inhabit.

>>2241416

So now what you're saying isn't that he had a "nuke" that he held in reserve.

You're saying he could have left Mordor in a physical body, but that it would have been very weak.

>>2241463

Now, I'm actually thinking of tripfagging so we can keep who said what straight.

That's my interpretation. Sauron, during the war of the ring, always acts through his intermediaries (mostly the ringwraiths). This is because he is either unwilling or unable to affect things himself to a great degree.

>>2241476

Agreed.

The point of contention lies between "willing" and "able". It makes no sense for him to be able but unwilling.

We never see him in possession of a major resource which he does not employ in the reclaiming of the ring. To the casual observer, it seems that he DOES wield his power directly whenever he has the chance.

>>2241499

Yes, but do we ever see him put himself in danger?

Whether he is unwilling to put himself in danger or unable to put himself in danger is up for debate.

I do think it seems unlikely that he would have held back a "nuke", so to speak, if he had it (even if it did mean putting himself in danger).

>>2241671

He did put himself in danger.

In the Hobbit, Gandalf is always vanishing for certain amounts of time. The reason for that was because of the Necromancer in Mirkwood - who was, in fact, Sauron taking form once more. While Bilbo was pilfering dragon's hordes and sneaking off with magic rings, the Wizards were dealing with Sauron's new avatar, and destroyed it's phsycial form, forcing him back to Mordor in a form that was physically helpless, but still had great force of will....

>>2241176
You do remember that in the Silmarillion Sauron is beaten in hand to hand combat by a man correct? I think it was Beren(since I believe its part of Beren and Luthien's story to retrieve the Silmaril from Melkor's crown)

>>2241986

Here we go again. They never actually fought Sauron in Mirkwood. When Gandalf first went there, he went there to sneak around and see what he could learn. By the time he got the rest of the wizards together, Sauron had already left. I don't think Sauron had ever really reformed with any kind of power.

Influence, sure, but no real power.

Elves and Istari = 4E wizards of the Spiral Tower. Easy. Eladrin are Eldarin. Elves are the less mystical latecomer elves. Bam.

Sorcerers = 4E warlocks. This is less obvious. When a dark maia would be destroyed, they'd become a powerless spirit, fearful of judgment. Sorcerers would offer their bodies to these wandering shades in exchange for power. Such would be the nature of the infernal pact in 4E. Fey pacts are similar, but its with elven spirits, instead of maia, to include those orc spirits that are derived from corrupted elves. Easy fit.

>>2242583
What kind of senseless analogy is this? First you group elves with Istari, then you make references to "dark maia" being destroyed and possessing people, something which I don't recall happening ever? You're not explaining things, you're writing bad sequels.

Thanks for an informative thread, guys.

>>2242609
I'm only grouping elves and istari together for the sake of how to represent their kewl powerz. Gandalf shot lazors, and Fingolfin caused fire to burn a boat. Likewise, Morgoth created massive volcanic reactions and great clouds of poison, all of which is more or less "wizard style" magic. In the movies which obviously aren't canon but still can be used for inspiration, Saruman uses himself a fireball, and the two wizards beat on each other with thunderwaves. there's also fireseeds and heat metal, so you could argue they're druids instead. Istari is ultimately a race, just as Aragorn got his powerz as a race, being descended from Melian, and being part human, part elf and part maia.

As to the "warlocks" of Middle-Earth, they actually have rather little direct relevance to the plot, other than the fact that say the Witch-King and the Mouth of Sauron were sorcerers (warlocks). Anyway, many Maia (immortals/outsiders) remained outside Creation, bodiless, etc. To affect Middle-Earth, they'd have to take a form. Almost all of the rebellious/dark Maia did so, because you need a form to dominate others, more or less. If destroyed immediately afterwards, they would not be noticeably harmed, but the longer they dwelt within a material form, the more fixed and static they'd become, the more subject to physical desire, the more they would identify themselves with this body. This is consistent also with the demons of Paradise Lost, as while angels were powerful shapeshifters, fallen angels gradually became more and more stagnant, less able to regenerate, etc.

The physical death would maim the immortal's spirit to some degree, and they could not easily re-manifest. This is why, say, balrogs didn't repeatedly fight to the death and respawn, etc. Gandalf was able to return to live by the intervention of one of the unbodied maia, but even then he was seriously screwed up by the process.

When someone like Sauron or Saruman perished, they'd become hateful shadows, able to manifest less and less. Still, sorcery or necromancy was the process of interacting with these spirits, for they had much to teach, and the spirits craved bodies once more, but could not reincarnate without subjecting themselves to judgment. Likewise, elves could reincarnate, but the more unaligned/evil ones would not wish to answer the call of Mandos, and so wander as elven phantoms. The elves that did leave at the end of the LotR book, would also eventually deteriorate into phantoms.

Both sorts of spirits could attempt to usurp control over the human body, possibly wounding or even killing the host by detaching soul from body. Also, werewolves were creations of this sort of sorcery, by taking disembodied spirits and putting them in control of great wolves. Some speculate dragons were also of this sort, though their origin is unknown.

Clerics in Middle-Earth are definitely not of the usual praise crystal dragon Jesus and gain powarz. Nor are the gods, with the exception of Melkor, the sort to demand worship. Instead, cleric-style powers seem to be a factor of rubbing off from divine contact. Namely the Noldor that lived with the Valar seemed to develop lazor cleric powers, as the first orcs could not withstand the "light of the Valar shining in the eyes of the Noldor." 4E clerics lack the enormous buffing power and resurrection spells (as class features) that are so out of place in Tolkien as well, that it seems a perfect fit.

>>2242831

Sorry, nitpick here, again. Gandalf never died after fighting the Balrog. Don't believe the movie propaganda. He almost died. I'm sure he though he might at the time, but he was rescued from freezing to death by the great eagle king.

That said, it seems as though hanging around after you die to one day hopefully reform a body was an action born from malice and spite, as only Sauron has really managed that feat.

I gotta say, you have a neat take on Middle Earth Necromancy. Is there anywhere canon that I could read about it? Either Christopher's or J.R.R.'s would be cool.

>>2242617
No sweat, too bad this dipsht -- >>2241282 -- doesn't know what he's talking about.

>>2242891
Are you sure? I vaguely recall some longwinded convo in spirit form and millions of years spent in spirit form in the blink of an eye and so forth. Also, my mom told me she cried when Gandalf died in the book back in the day, and reading about how Tolkien regretted letting Gandalf come back from the dead.

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/43808/8

Here's a bit of a blurb about elf wraiths. I am going to go out on a limb and assume I DON'T need to cite the shit about evil maia wandering the earth as bodiless spirits after their death, so I'll just look for the bit on sorcerers.

"When Gandalfs spirit departed from his body, his body died upon Zirak-Zigil. He obviously stood before Mandos who encouraged him to return to complete the task set. However, this departure could easily have been but a blink of the eye within time on Middle-Earth, yet many centuries uncounted within Valinor."

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=5213

"If you refer to the Houseless, as JRRT referred to them in HOME 10, I am not quite sure if they fall under the definition of wraiths as JRRT described them. They are not enslaved creatures bound to a Ring or any magical object, but simply stubborn elves whose fëar have outlasted their hroar."

http://www.tolkientrail.com/entmoot/showthread.php?t=11762

Saruman, being a Maia, did not truly die. His spirit separated from his body much like Sauron's after the Downfall of Númenor. As a discorporated spirit, he should have been called to Mandos, but the tale implies that he was barred from returning. Tolkien indicated that his spirit was left naked, powerless and wandering, never to return to Middle-earth:

"Whereas Curunir was cast down, and utterly humbled, and perished at last by the hand of an oppressed slave; and his spirit went whithersoever it was doomed to go, and to Middle-earth, whether naked or embodied, came never back" [1]
http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Saruman#After_Death

That should give you a general idea of the whole ghostly types, you can do your own reference. Now as to where I found that bit on sorcerers and necromancy and shit...

"When released they would [maiar spirits killed in bodily form], of course, like Sauron, be 'damned': i.e. reduced to impotence, infinitely recessive: still hating but unable more and more to make it effective physically (or would not a very dwindled dead Orc-state be a poltergeist?" (HoME X, Myths Transformed)

“Each feä was imperishable within the life of Arda, and that its fate was to inhabit Arda to its end. (…)As soon as they were disbodied they were summoned to leave the places of their life and death and go to the 'Halls of Waiting': Mandos, in the realm of the Valar”(14), but “It [feä] cannot be brought to Mandos. It is summoned (…) yet it [the summon] may be refused”(14) and “refusal of the summons to Mandos and the Halls of Waiting is (…) frequent”(14), and that was among the Elves. Indeed “it [feär] were already committed to the Darkness and passed then into its dominion. In like manner even of the Eldar some who had become corrupted refused the summons, and then had little power to resist the counter-summons of Morgoth”(14), and thus the Disbodied Orcs would be again in the power of Melkor. “Such practices [mastering the houseless feär and making them servants] are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant”(14). Indeed Sauron is referred to as The Necromancer, and the Which King of Angmar is said to command evil spirits.

Moreover “one of the hungry Houseless (…) may seek to eject the feä from its body; and in the contest for mastery the body may be gravely injured, even if it be not wrested from its rightful habitant.

Or the Houseless may plead for shelter, and if it is admitted, then it will seek to enslave its host and use both his will and his body for its own purposes. It is said that Sauron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them”(14).

And there ya go. More or less like the Binders and Vestiges of 3E also. Binders would be a fine Tolkien sorcerer too, because they're mainly warrior types besides the abilities from possession.

>>2243119

I am humbled by your discussion, sir. However, I'm still the biggest Tolkien fag I know. ;)

However it was never really clear to me that Gandalf died after fighting the Balrog. If Tolkien said it, later, then I guess he must have, but the actual passage is rather vague, as Gandalf himself.

This thread should be archived.

>>2243189 I am humbled by your discussion, sir.
And I as well. He has the facts.

>>2243189
Thanks. I only pay too much attention to ZE BAD GUISE myself.

>>2243055
Just checking to make sure, but the "oppressed slave" was Wormtongue, right?

>>2245297
Yes.

Off-topic, but I just noticed /a/ is named "Animu & Mango", which made me lol a bit.

>>2241419
Tolkien says in his letters that he had a body- that of a very large, terrifying man- at the time of LotR.

A little on topic, a little off.

Didn't Tolkein lore get retconned so that female Dwarves were actually very, very feminine. Like, the complete opposites of their male counterparts?

>>2247451

Tolkien has been dead for awhile, so it isn't possible for any "ret-con" to take place that anyone would take seriously. That would be like ret-conning Shakesphere. Even Christopher would get bitched out for trying it.

I haven't read LoTR since I was like 12 (I'm reading Silmarillion and will start with The Hobbit after this), and the copy I had then was printed years before that even, but still after Tolkien's death. And it had a glossary which described females as having beards, and in general resembling young dwarf males.

WOMANBEARD. HABEEB IT.

Has anyone thought of as to you know, the fact that if Sauron DID leave his tower and did the dirty work, what would happen to his kingdom, his armies, his communications. Everything would fall apart. I'm assuming that the tower he was in was enchanted as well due to the fact that in order to have such strong abilities and the like he would HAVE to be in a place that amplified his powers to have effect on the world around it.

>>2247628

Actually, yea, a lot of people have thought that.

Scroll up.